Long Tale Press

Use this thread to discuss the excerpt The Fallen by Cloister.

Others may not have read this excerpt yet, so please use tags where appropriate.

Jan: yes, you're totally right. A couple of pages into chapter 2 is when the characters' lives get all turned over and the real fun begins.

Man, this writing stuff is hard! I don't think there's really any spoiler in saying this:

I really love chapter 1. (Can I say that about my own work without sounding like a total egomaniac?) But I love it like an artist, and not like a fan. I love it because of what it says about the characters, and not because everyone I've shown it to has said "I just couldn't put it down!" (they haven't). But if I'm being honest with myself I have to recognize that what several of the reviewers here on this site have said is spot on.

In hindsight, the story actually starts in chapter 2. I can see that now. And in hindsight, although chapter 1 does its job of introducing Trevor, and introducing Harmony as a girl with something unusual going on, the chapter is also very misleading as far as giving an accurate impression of what kind of a book it's going to turn out to be and what audience it's written for. Don't you hate it when that happens?

What can I say. "The Fallen" was my first novel. I've learned a lot since then. If I had it to do over, I'd start with chapter 2 and work the chapter 1 material in to subsequent scenes as memories, flashbacks, et cetera. But I just haven't had the time or energy to undertake that task.

So I know what I need to do. I mean, I could just slap "Prologue" on it in place of calling it "Chapter 1" and wash my hands of the whole affair, but that would be lame. Someday, when my kids learn to let me sleep more than 5 hours a night, or when I win the lottery so I can quit my damn day job and write full time, I'll take this on.

Or maybe I'll do it in December, after NaNoWriMo is over, and I need something else to do while I gain some distance from however my new first draft turns out.

Sign up for National Novel Writing Month at www.nanowrimo.org starting October 1!

One more thing: I loved the characters in The Fallen. I could see them clear as day. I wasn't sure where you were going with them later, but I did come to care about them. You're a good writer and I think it comes easier for you than it does for me. I can tell that by how your reviews are written. You're very articulate.Show spoiler God this is a hard job--writing. What drives us to do it? I mean, those words are our babies, and, of course, it hurts when someone doesn't see them the way we do. Anyone who says it doesn't, is just plain lying. But you have to have a tough hide. It's the only way you learn.

Duh, never mind Cloister, you already review WHAT THE HEART SEES.

First, I value your input. There is a fine line between accepting critique from someone whose writing is not polished, severely lacking, and who jumps right in, and Yes, this happens. It's called leap before you think. BUT - and this is capitalized - because you hit it right on the head with your comments with your analysis of Jan's work. I admire also your own comments as to your work. But, again, your first chapter can be improved effortlessly - just take out the first three paragraphs - and do not start your story with conversation. Few authors can do this with applomb. Don't treat the first chapter as a prologue and head your own advice as to what I know as 'data dumping." There is a difference between 'data dumping and back story and where and how you present it. You have a unique writer's voice - keep working at it.

Do you ever get severely discouraged and just want to hang it up? Why do we keep writing despite all those rejections from publishers? What drives us? Are we masochists? Is there a point at which we should finally admit, "I'm not good enough. I'm just wasting my time and everyone elses as well." Because, I really think I might be there. How long have you been at this, Cloister? Have you had anything published? Because you are a good writer and very articulate. I've been writing and submitting for over ten years, and although I've come close a few times, it's always fallen through. I'm asking because you seem to know so much about the business of writing. (Are you a teacher by the way?) What is your background, and how do you find time to do all that you do???--read every excerpt and thoroughly review them, attempt to write a novel in a month. I mean you said you have small children and work a full-time job.

Your reviews (to me and to others) have been very helpful. I’m going to miss them in Nov. You said on a good day, you can write 1000 words an hour. That’s amazing! I can only imagine what you could do with your writing if you had more than two hours a day. Do you write the first draft all the way through as quickly as you can without any editing. I’m a bit obsessive/compulsive. Understatement! I can’t seem to do that, (I get hung up on typos and punctuation) which really slows me up. Dumb, I know; I’m trying to overcome that. Do you have any suggestions?

I’ll be following your writing in November on that website. Maybe I’ll even give it a go. Being an aspiring author, I live a rather solitary life. As a result, I have a small network of friends. I’m afraid I’m not very social. But I’m likable—I think –I hope. I mean, I think the few friends I have like me quite a bit, because they make great efforts to keep in touch even when I don’t. That’s a good sign, right? They’re quality, no doubt about it. Anyway, I don’t have a large pool of people who could review my excerpts, so I appreciate that you recommended You’re so Vain….to the community.

What do you think about Long Tale retaining all rights? Do you have any ponerings about the psyche of a writer? By the way, have you considered submitting the second chap. of The Fallen to Long Tale? Also, I hope you're saving all your reviews for that book on writing you'll do some day.

I write the first draft straight through with minimal editing. That is probably the single most important writing lesson I've ever learned, and I learned it because of NaNoWriMo. After all, if you don't get out of your own way long enough to finish the first draft, then you have nothing. On the other hand, if you write a crappy first draft, at least you have something to work with. I don't do NO editing at all, even I'm prone to fiddling with the text here and there during November, but the truth is that if you're emotionally and personally committed to putting out 50 thousand words in one month, there just isn't time to edit. At this point I've gotten pretty comfortable with the idea that editing can come later. And it's all right, it really is. In many ways, editing SHOULD come later, after you've had some time away from the work.

Rights: I think it's par for the course. From what I've seen, when you sign a contract with a publishing house what you're really doing is "selling your baby," as it were. The tradeoff is that a) you get money for it, and b) someone else undertakes the crushingly boring job of production and marketing. Whether that's a good trade probably depends on whether you want a second job as a production/marketing person in addition to your job as a writer.

What's different here (and pretty compelling) is the royalty structure. If you do the math, you'll see that even on a $5 e-book, as an author you'd make more royalty than on a $12.50 paperback from a typical publisher. That rocks. I've never heard of a publisher that offers a 50/50 split with the writer, so you know, wow.

2nd chapter: I do. I've been giving that a lot of thought lately (usually at night when I'm trying to fall asleep) and I think it can. What needs to happen is that I need to identify the most important character elements about Harmony from chapter 1 (which will be easy; there's a bunch of stuff in there now that was fun for me to write but is honestly irrelevant to the story) and insert them as memories and flashbacks in chapter 2. There are obvious places where this can happen in a reasonably natural way. I just haven't gotten to doing it yet. It'll be a bit of a challenge for me, though; I've really never done any flashback kind of stuff before. Not substantively, anyway, so doing it smoothly such that the reader isn't de-railed from the main thrust of the events in chapter 2 will be a challenge.

Sign up for National Novel Writing Month at www.nanowrimo.org; novel writing starts November 1st!